Re: Properties of solders

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Posted by Gary Dodge on November 13, 2002 at 22:22:04:

In Reply to: Properties of solders posted by Angel on November 13, 2002 at 13:07:40:

Angel Says: "I perceive a few inaccuracies in your rebuttal."

And goes on to paste in the following info:

<<<<<<: 60/40 Solder: Composed of 60% tin and 40% lead, this solder melts at 374oF, but doesn't become completely solid until it cools to 361oF. This means it has a "pasty range" or "working range" of 13 degrees. This solder is your best choice for copper foil work. The liquid temperature and narrow "pasty range" make it easy to form and maintain consistent high, rounded, beaded seams. Because of its relatively low melting point, "60/40" solder is easy to rework to maintain a smooth finish solder bead.

:
: 50/50 Solder: This is composed of 50% tin and 50% lead. It is liquid at 421oF, solid at 361oF and has a pasty range of 60 degrees. This solder will produce a much "flatter" bead than 60/40. Because of its higher melting point, 50/50 solder is often used on the back (or inside) of a stained glass project to protect against "melt through" when soldering the front. Because it spreads and flattens out, 50/50 solder is often used when soldering lead came joints. >>>>>

GaryD---OK, so how is this a rebuttal? Just agrees with most of what I said except for the flatter bead part, and frankly in over 30 years of stained glass experience I've never seen anybody say that before and since I don't know who wrote this I'm not likely to regard them as a higher authority than myself nor do I regard Inland as an authority on anything Stained Glass. They are more of an optical company and international comglomerate type entity. Oh, and I've never seen anything to support the flat bead theory either. As I said before, if you put the metal there it will be there, plain and simple. I don't know why you take issue with my statement about the conservation of matter. It is a basic fact of the universe. If you put the metal there it will be there, as high as you want it. No place for it to go to unless you overheat and melt through, but we've already established that melt through is a specialty of 60/40 and the like.
:
:<<<<< 63/37 Solder: This solder is 63% tin and 37% lead. It becomes liquid at 361oF, and solid at 361oF, with a pasty or working range of 0 degrees. This solder is called a eutectic alloy which means at 361oF, you can go instantly from solid to liquid to solid just by applying or removing the heat source. You will often find "63/37" solder referred to as decorative or quick set solder. It is primarily used to create dimensional effects in the solder itself and can be "pulled" and manipulated to produce a variety of textures and designs. 63/37 solder also makes an excellent solder to bead up the outside rim of copper foiled pieces. >>>>>>>>

GAryD-----They can say this all they want, I've seen enough students and customers struggle through the years trying to build an edge bead with watery solders and the relief when they experience the revelation of 50/50 solder.

If we're going to do the cut and paste game, here is the description of 50/50 solder from the canfiled site:

CANFIELD: 50% TIN/50% LEAD
STAINED GLASS WIRE SOLDER
The ideal solder for copper foil seams and general purpose use. Melting temperature: 361 - 421F.

60% TIN/40% LEAD
STAINED GLASS WIRE SOLDER
For use on copper foil seams and lead came seams. Offers superior flow over 50/50 with more flow per inch than 50/50. melting temperature: 361 - 376F.

So the Canfield folks say 50/50 is ideal for copper foil seams. 60/40 is apparently OK as well, but 50/50 is ideal. So who do you trust Inland who doesn't even make solder or Canfield, the most trusted manufacturer of solder?

: GD--: First<<<>>>> Only till you reach 63/37. As you add tin past this point the melting point goes up again. It's just that nobody uses higher tin solders for stained glass, (or much of anything else that I can think of), so your answer is true if limited to stained glass solders.

<<<<<<: Angel--Melting point is just that...it's NOT the same as pasty range, We consider both when deciding whether we want flat seams or rounded ones. Your statement that 50/50 melts at the same temp as 60/40 and 63/37 is simply wrong. >>>>>

GAryD----Uhhh, that's my point, melting point IS NOT THE SAME AS PASTY RANGE. Is is the point at which the solder stops being solid and it is the same for 50/50 and 60/40, but the pasty range is what sets them apart and also what makes edge beading easier if you really want a high round substantial metal bead you just can't do it with watery metal.

<<<<<<: GD--: Because of both this pasty range and the fact that the metal is a bit more viscous (thicker) when fully melted than higher tin stained glass solders it is much easier to work with for many applications which include soldering seams in lamps without run-through, building a bead on the edge of a suncatcher, soldering seams on came projects without seeing the space between the cames, etc.>>>>>>

<<<<<<: because most SG artists value the rounded, raised seams that you can't get with 50/50. >>>>>
I've never sent a panel or lamp out with flat seams, always 50/50.

Angel-----If you edge bead with 50/50 it will run off before it solidifies producing a "tinning" effect instead of a "BEADING" and a whole lot of frustration.

GaryD----Just not so.

<<<<<< 50/50 produces the dullest solder lines that take the poorest patina. >>>>>

GaryD-----I've used 60/40 over 50/50 to fill really wide gaps and patinaed over the whole thing. There is NO WAY TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 50/50 AND 60/40 CANFIELD SOLDER, with or without patina, just by looking. Both are equally shiny and unless you've been using some really trashy patina they will both patina the same.

: GD-- As for the "flat bead", what are you talking about? If you don't use enough solder you'll have a flat bead, if you use enough metal it simply can't be flat. Something to with "the conservation of matter". The metal can't just go away.

<<<<<<<: Angel--hahaha....now, you're getting irritated. >>>>>

GAryD---Irritated? No, just puzzled. I tend to be an analytical worker. Always observing the behavior of materials and applying the laws of physics to figure out why. I've just never seen anything to support this idea.

Angel----Never let that show in a debate my friend. You want a raised bead with 50/50, maybe a VERY experienced Pro can get it with one-pass soldering...without it running off and making a mess...but anybody else will need to let it cool and re-pass until the right effect is achieved. This is a problem for newer people because it increases the chances of messing up a seam or cracking glass if it's not alloweed to cool completely between passes. We AIM for one pass soldering. Touch-ups (though everybody does a few) are the product of poor initial soldering. They are actually easier with a solder that melts at a lower temp than 50/50 and whether you can do them effectively is a product of technique, not solder composition.

GAryD---I'll grant you this. If you have to go it on your own without a competent instructor you'll have a better shot in the dark soldering with 60/40. With proper instruction we have no trouble getting our students to do a fine job with 50/50, they save frustration in the touch ups phase of things (and you'll have to do touch ups no matter what you use), and they save a buck a pound to boot!

: GD--: I'd probably rate the solder and flux equal in importance with the iron (and temperature control) coming in second.

: Angel--I agree that Temp control is important, but WE use the Hakko 456. Some people use the Weller 100 that shouldn't be put on a controller and a LOT of the pros don't like them (fools) and advocate soldering with full heat, no control. So, for the sake of this litle diatribe, I didn't include one.

: GD-- Finally, the big difference in everyday soldering between 50/50 and 60/40 solder is in the ability to do touch up work. Either one will give you a few imperfections in your line, no matter how good you are. 50/50 is very easy to do touch ups on. Just stick your iron into the flawed area, let it melt, then a shorter dab to melt solder just left, then just right of the affected area and the line is patched. Attempting to do patch ups with 60/40 is frustrating at best. Every touch-up seems to spawn a new problem just adjacent to the patched area. You can spend the rest of the day just chasing the flaw around your panel.

Angel-----: Well, this has been fun. Nobody learns much from simplistic replies or lack of opposing opinions. People on here don't realize how peaceful the board is. Nobody seems to enjoy debate. I'll do it anytime if it adds to MY knowledge or somebody else's....and it shows how diverse the opinions and practices are in the Stained Glass field. There's really no ONE right way to do anything. Whatever works is fine...but to discover that one way for YOU, a little infomation is good.

GaryD----Agreed!

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: Angel Says: "I perceive a few inaccuracies in your rebuttal." : And goes on to paste in the following info: : <<<<<<: 60/40 Solder: Composed of 60% tin and 40% lead, this solder melts at 374oF, but doesn't become completely solid until it cools to 361oF. This means it has a "pasty range" or "working range" of 13 degrees. This solder is your best choice for copper foil work. The liquid temperature and narrow "pasty range" make it easy to form and maintain consistent high, rounded, beaded seams. Because of its relatively low melting point, "60/40" solder is easy to rework to maintain a smooth finish solder bead. : : : : 50/50 Solder: This is composed of 50% tin and 50% lead. It is liquid at 421oF, solid at 361oF and has a pasty range of 60 degrees. This solder will produce a much "flatter" bead than 60/40. Because of its higher melting point, 50/50 solder is often used on the back (or inside) of a stained glass project to protect against "melt through" when soldering the front. Because it spreads and flattens out, 50/50 solder is often used when soldering lead came joints. >>>>> : GaryD---OK, so how is this a rebuttal? Just agrees with most of what I said except for the flatter bead part, and frankly in over 30 years of stained glass experience I've never seen anybody say that before and since I don't know who wrote this I'm not likely to regard them as a higher authority than myself nor do I regard Inland as an authority on anything Stained Glass. They are more of an optical company and international comglomerate type entity. Oh, and I've never seen anything to support the flat bead theory either. As I said before, if you put the metal there it will be there, plain and simple. I don't know why you take issue with my statement about the conservation of matter. It is a basic fact of the universe. If you put the metal there it will be there, as high as you want it. No place for it to go to unless you overheat and melt through, but we've already established that melt through is a specialty of 60/40 and the like. : : : :<<<<< 63/37 Solder: This solder is 63% tin and 37% lead. It becomes liquid at 361oF, and solid at 361oF, with a pasty or working range of 0 degrees. This solder is called a eutectic alloy which means at 361oF, you can go instantly from solid to liquid to solid just by applying or removing the heat source. You will often find "63/37" solder referred to as decorative or quick set solder. It is primarily used to create dimensional effects in the solder itself and can be "pulled" and manipulated to produce a variety of textures and designs. 63/37 solder also makes an excellent solder to bead up the outside rim of copper foiled pieces. >>>>>>>> : GAryD-----They can say this all they want, I've seen enough students and customers struggle through the years trying to build an edge bead with watery solders and the relief when they experience the revelation of 50/50 solder. : If we're going to do the cut and paste game, here is the description of 50/50 solder from the canfiled site: : CANFIELD: 50% TIN/50% LEAD : STAINED GLASS WIRE SOLDER : The ideal solder for copper foil seams and general purpose use. Melting temperature: 361 - 421F. : 60% TIN/40% LEAD : STAINED GLASS WIRE SOLDER : For use on copper foil seams and lead came seams. Offers superior flow over 50/50 with more flow per inch than 50/50. melting temperature: 361 - 376F. : So the Canfield folks say 50/50 is ideal for copper foil seams. 60/40 is apparently OK as well, but 50/50 is ideal. So who do you trust Inland who doesn't even make solder or Canfield, the most trusted manufacturer of solder? : : GD--: First<<<<The more lead present, the higher the melting point.>>>>> Only till you reach 63/37. As you add tin past this point the melting point goes up again. It's just that nobody uses higher tin solders for stained glass, (or much of anything else that I can think of), so your answer is true if limited to stained glass solders. : <<<<<<: Angel--Melting point is just that...it's NOT the same as pasty range, We consider both when deciding whether we want flat seams or rounded ones. Your statement that 50/50 melts at the same temp as 60/40 and 63/37 is simply wrong. >>>>> : GAryD----Uhhh, that's my point, melting point IS NOT THE SAME AS PASTY RANGE. Is is the point at which the solder stops being solid and it is the same for 50/50 and 60/40, but the pasty range is what sets them apart and also what makes edge beading easier if you really want a high round substantial metal bead you just can't do it with watery metal. : <<<<<<: GD--: Because of both this pasty range and the fact that the metal is a bit more viscous (thicker) when fully melted than higher tin stained glass solders it is much easier to work with for many applications which include soldering seams in lamps without run-through, building a bead on the edge of a suncatcher, soldering seams on came projects without seeing the space between the cames, etc.>>>>>> : <<<<<<: because most SG artists value the rounded, raised seams that you can't get with 50/50. >>>>> : I've never sent a panel or lamp out with flat seams, always 50/50. : <<<<<<If you edge bead with 50/50 it will run off before it solidifies producing a "tinning" effect instead of a "BEADING" and a whole lot of frustration. >>>>>> : Nonsense : <<<<<< 50/50 produces the dullest solder lines that take the poorest patina. >>>>> : GaryD-----I've used 60/40 over 50/50 to fill really wide gaps and patinaed over the whole thing. There is NO WAY TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 50/50 AND 60/40 CANFIELD SOLDER, with or without patina, just by looking. Both are equally shiny and unless you've been using some really trashy patina they will both patina the same. : : GD-- As for the "flat bead", what are you talking about? If you don't use enough solder you'll have a flat bead, if you use enough metal it simply can't be flat. Something to with "the conservation of matter". The metal can't just go away. : <<<<<<<: Angel--hahaha....now, you're getting irritated. >>>>> : GAryD---Irritated? No, just puzzled. I tend to be an analytical worker. Always observing the behavior of materials and applying the laws of physics to figure out why. I've just never seen anything to support this idea. : <<<<<Never let that show in a debate my friend. You want a raised bead with 50/50, maybe a VERY experienced Pro can get it with one-pass soldering...without it running off and making a mess...but anybody else will need to let it cool and re-pass until the right effect is achieved. This is a problem for newer people because it increases the chances of messing up a seam or cracking glass if it's not alloweed to cool completely between passes. We AIM for one pass soldering. Touch-ups (though everybody does a few) are the product of poor initial soldering. They are actually easier with a solder that melts at a lower temp than 50/50 and whether you can do them effectively is a product of technique, not solder composition.>>>>> : GAryD---I'll grant you this. If you have to go it on your own without a competent instructor you'll have a better shot in the dark soldering with 60/40. With proper instruction we have no trouble getting our students to do a fine job with 50/50, they save frustration in the touch ups phase of things (and you'll have to do touch ups no matter what you use), and they save a buck a pound to boot! : : : GD--: I'd probably rate the solder and flux equal in importance with the iron (and temperature control) coming in second. : : Angel--I agree that Temp control is important, but WE use the Hakko 456. Some people use the Weller 100 that shouldn't be put on a controller and a LOT of the pros don't like them (fools) and advocate soldering with full heat, no control. So, for the sake of this litle diatribe, I didn't include one. : : GD-- Finally, the big difference in everyday soldering between 50/50 and 60/40 solder is in the ability to do touch up work. Either one will give you a few imperfections in your line, no matter how good you are. 50/50 is very easy to do touch ups on. Just stick your iron into the flawed area, let it melt, then a shorter dab to melt solder just left, then just right of the affected area and the line is patched. Attempting to do patch ups with 60/40 is frustrating at best. Every touch-up seems to spawn a new problem just adjacent to the patched area. You can spend the rest of the day just chasing the flaw around your panel. : Angel-----: Well, this has been fun. Nobody learns much from simplistic replies or lack of opposing opinions. People on here don't realize how peaceful the board is. Nobody seems to enjoy debate. I'll do it anytime if it adds to MY knowledge or somebody else's....and it shows how diverse the opinions and practices are in the Stained Glass field. There's really no ONE right way to do anything. Whatever works is fine...but to discover that one way for YOU, a little infomation is good. : GaryD----Agreed!

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